Game Thread #34: Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons
This one should be both fun and important, as (two of) the top teams in the East square off tonight at the United Center. Sure there's the added backstory of Ben Wallace facing his former mates, but that seems more of an issue for Detroit and their fans than the Bulls. Although maybe in the presence of Flip Saunders, Wallace will be especially focused on showing off his new offensive moves. (That phrase can be taken multiple ways...)
The more important matchup is how the Bulls stack up as a team against Detroit, a matchup that has had some successes (including winning both road games 2 seasons ago) but a nightmare 0-fer last season including an embarrassing blowout. My Man Sam has a nice recap of the recent rivalry (or not, according to the Pistons).
"To me, our rivals in the East are Indiana and Miami. Not to take anything away from those young fellas, but it's not a rivalry."
Grrrrrrrrrrr.
It sure seemed like one last season when Rasheed Wallace spent much of an easy December victory mocking the Bulls and laughing at their misses, shouting "ball don't lie" as the Bulls missed free throws, yelling "bank" on shots and pushing around Andres Nocioni. Coach Scott Skiles seethed and in a postgame lecture he assured his team he would have done something about it.
In their next game later in December, the usually calm Othella Harrington got ejected in frustration. And when the teams met again in February, Skiles almost did something about it. Pistons players say Skiles was challenging Richard Hamilton to a fight after Hamilton got ejected for elbowing Kirk Hinrich.
Skiles denied it, though most people would have come to blows after the things Hamilton, according to witnesses, called Skiles: Unprintable names and characterizations that have led to much more extreme violence elsewhere.
...
But now the landscape has changed some, even if the Pistons are loathe to admit it despite the Bulls' addition of Ben Wallace.
Wallace against his former team is likely more of a footnote given that Pistons players probably talk to Wallace more often than Wallace's new teammates do. Billups, who won't play on Saturday, says he and Ben Wallace speak about every day, and Wallace will always be a Piston.
...
That may create some ambivalence for the Bulls on Saturday.
Everyone hates the Pistons and their behavior. The Bulls question their sportsmanship; they say the Pistons moan and constantly beg for fouls. The Bulls now have Ben Wallace, who was involved in sticking it to them.
But the Pistons remain the team that has been the Eastern dynasty the last five years.
So it's probably a bigger game for the Bulls than for Ben Wallace, and perhaps not so much for the Pistons, who on Friday seemed eager for the reunion with their old friend.
It's annoying that the Pistons believe they're some sort of dynasty, but that's irrelevant if the Bulls can't beat them.
A lot has changed for both teams since last season, the Bulls took one of their best players, and the Pistons have completely changed their style to become the 3rd best offense in the league, although not maintaining the dominating defense that got them to the Finals in consecutive years. Both ends of the floor will be impacted by the loss of Chauncey Billups, meaning the Pistons weak backcourt bench of Lindsay Hunter and Flip Murray will have to log heavy minutes. Hopefully this means that last night's 0 FTA effort against New Jersey was an aberration for Ben Gordon, who falls into his old inconsistencies when not getting to the line.
But I'm especially worried about what Rasheed Wallace may do tonight. He's dominant when inspired, and coupling facing Ben Wallace as well as his annoyance in Andres Nocioni he may be ready for a big game. And for those who question the long-term viability of Noc as a starting four can look to this matchup as an example why it won't work, as Wallace can absolutely dominate Noc if his shot is falling.
Blogging with the Enemy: Detroit Bad Boys | Need4Sheed | Human Victory Cigar
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Dominate
by Paxson Jackson on Jan 6, 2007 5:29 PM CST 0 recs
Time for a big win.
Predicting Rasheed's effort level is about like predicting Rex Grossman's QB rating in any given game. Like you said Matt, the Bulls could use a big forward to match up with 'Sheed. Someone like, oh say Jermaine O'Neal (shameless diary plug).
by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Jan 6, 2007 5:32 PM CST 0 recs
I'm sure
Go Bulls!!!
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2007 5:55 PM CST 0 recs
Hey Sue...
Anyway... GO BULLS!!!
by tyger1147 on
Jan 6, 2007 6:18 PM CST
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I hope we
by sue369 on
Jan 6, 2007 6:44 PM CST
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not gonna make excuses
Yet (and these aren't excuses...only observations) 2 points at home to a depleted team on the road in the big 10 is nothing to write home about. Furthermore, I hated Izzo's end of game execution (as i usually do...the one part of his coaching i can't stand). Furthermore, once ya'll come to breslin, it's going to get bloody. i seem to recall a 30 point shalacking last year
by milesgmsu on
Jan 7, 2007 7:57 PM CST
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Miles,
by sue369 on
Jan 8, 2007 10:42 AM CST
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the comment wasnt directed at sue
I felt all along that Iowa would beat MSU...winning on the road in the big 10 when you have freshman making signifcent contirbutions is such a hard thing
by milesgmsu on
Jan 10, 2007 8:53 AM CST
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Interesting
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2007 7:52 PM CST 0 recs
Skiles did the same thing against Bosh.
by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on
Jan 6, 2007 7:56 PM CST
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When your groin muscle
by Paxson Jackson on
Jan 6, 2007 8:13 PM CST
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Ah, don't be cranky Pax
And it's not just the groin, he's stuck chasing Rip all over the place!
At least he's racking up those assists to offset the 0 for 7 shooting. :)
by wjb1492 on
Jan 6, 2007 8:18 PM CST
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Why
by bleargh on Jan 6, 2007 8:42 PM CST 0 recs
Weren't they inbounding the ball at the time?
by wjb1492 on
Jan 6, 2007 8:46 PM CST
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What counts as possession?
I'm pretty sure the inbounder had the ball in his hands when the whistle was blown. But I could be mistaken.
Oh well, no matter. Great game....
by bleargh on
Jan 6, 2007 10:02 PM CST
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The outside referee
by OldeBull on
Jan 7, 2007 12:42 PM CST
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Oh
by bleargh on
Jan 7, 2007 12:45 PM CST
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Deng is
Is it part of the Pistons training that they must complain after every call?
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2007 8:44 PM CST 0 recs
Sucks!!
by Goostafer on Jan 6, 2007 9:43 PM CST 0 recs
Scoreboard watching already?
by defensive indifference on
Jan 6, 2007 10:00 PM CST
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i've been scoreboard watching
first game rooting for the sonics (or somee other shitty team) to beat the pacers is one such pathetic example
by milesgmsu on
Jan 7, 2007 8:01 PM CST
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Great win!
Now I can get back to seeing who the Bears will be playing (assuming the Eagles whip the Giants).
by defensive indifference on Jan 6, 2007 9:59 PM CST 0 recs
gordon
Great game for Deng and Wallace, with some lucky breaks going Chicago's way for once.
by nas on Jan 6, 2007 10:01 PM CST 0 recs
The way things are going
by bleargh on
Jan 6, 2007 10:04 PM CST
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I think the opposite
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jan 6, 2007 10:30 PM CST
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Maybe
Watching the game, I get the sense Hinrich and Gordon really don't have a feel for each other on the court. There was one play Gordon was wide open on the side, and Hinrich just kept dribbling at the top of the key looking inside. Maybe there was some thought process there I wasn't following.
by nas on
Jan 6, 2007 10:36 PM CST
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I think
by sue369 on
Jan 6, 2007 10:45 PM CST
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Well
He did leave Gordon in to finish the game, but Ben didn't take another shot after that.
by bleargh on
Jan 7, 2007 10:57 AM CST
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Sounds like the end of the game
by wjb1492 on Jan 6, 2007 10:23 PM CST 0 recs
That was
by sue369 on
Jan 6, 2007 10:24 PM CST
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Tony Romo, Professional Holder?
by defensive indifference on
Jan 6, 2007 10:30 PM CST
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Poor Romo
by Llawred on
Jan 6, 2007 10:30 PM CST
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I did feel a little sorry for him -
by wjb1492 on
Jan 6, 2007 10:32 PM CST
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I was glad
I love the big Ben bong sound they do when Ben W. makes a basket.
Anyone else notice Red getting his Ben's mixed up when talking about them tonight?
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2007 10:29 PM CST 0 recs
Yes
by KT on
Jan 6, 2007 10:38 PM CST
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lol
by sue369 on
Jan 6, 2007 10:44 PM CST
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larabee already calls him the body
by milesgmsu on
Jan 7, 2007 8:03 PM CST
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So Far...
but the media definitely will not give us due credit until we prove ourselves come playoff time. I think we have the makeup to get to the finals, but by no means beat the Western Conference opponent this year..
by NocChapu on Jan 6, 2007 11:57 PM CST 0 recs
Obviously the outcome
Sadly, we as Bulls fans are gonna have to deal with opposing team comebacks all season because: 1) all NBA teams make runs, and 2) and more importantly, the Bulls haven't learned a killer instinct yet.
Late in the game with a 16-20 point lead and the Pistons threatening a comeback, I focused on Kirk's floor game to see how his decision making would affect things. What I saw was two straight bad pass turnovers and on the next possession a woeful shot that Mugsy Bogues could have blocked.
Couple those plays with the lackadaisical Ben Gordon/ Jason Kidd steal on the inbounds the other night, and I see a need. I see a let down when things are going well, and a few more games like the Nets and Suns and the Bulls guards will learn the hard way that they can't take plays off.
Enough bad observations...
Nocioni needed a good game after a couple weeks of down performances.
And Ben Gordon is fast becoming the go-to guy, even if he gets lost in the offense sometimes when Kirk's on the floor.
And the Detroit stigma is gone. Would Chauney have made a difference? I doubt it, not in Chicago at any rate. But now, for me, the last two losses do become moral victories because, like Matt said the other day, I feel safe saying this is a good Bulls team and I don't have to rationalize or qualify my feelings.
I think the Bulls can win the East, and the rest of the regular season will be a time for the Bulls to fine tune their game. Beating the team from the West, now that's a different story.
by james@lifeinthecell on Jan 7, 2007 7:57 AM CST 0 recs
There were
I would like to see how Ben G. plays now if he started. It seems like as soon as he comes off the bench he has 3-4 turnovers right away and then he settles in. I wonder if that would change if he started?
by sue369 on
Jan 7, 2007 10:47 AM CST
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I think
by Moses Taylor on
Jan 8, 2007 10:44 AM CST
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After watching games like this
by Option27 on Jan 7, 2007 11:13 AM CST 0 recs
15-3 at home
now if we could play 500 on the road...
by milesgmsu on
Jan 7, 2007 8:08 PM CST
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Addressing Nocioni at 4 (and other holes?)
I agree, tonight was a good example of why Nocioni is not going to work--long term--as the Bulls' 4.
Even though 'Sheed finished with only 8 points on 3 of 8 shooting, it was painfully obvious how easy it could have been for 'Sheed had he consistently attacked the basket from 8' and in. Now Rasheed Wallace is an extraordinarily 'long' forward, no question; the only problem being that Nocioni is every bit as 'small' for a 4 as Rasheed is long for a 4.
There is no question that the NBA is trending toward 4s like Wallace, not Nocioni, which only makes Nocioni less valuable as a starter in the years to come. And with the Pistons heading to the playoffs--it would be a SHOCK if they didn't make it--Nocioni becomes that much more of a defensive liability right now, since the road to a Championship will almost certainly run through the Palace at Auburn Hills, MI.
So if you agree with that logic, then the question becomes: Do we have the options available to properly replace Nocioni ("properly replace" meaning: must be able to play starter's minutes, not be an offensive liablitly and be a better defender) in the starting lineup?
Tyrus Thomas? IMO, No...more capable vertcal defender yes, but an offensive liablity for sure
P.J. Brown? There's your starter in a series against Detroit IMO, but he appears headed out of town...why we'd let that happen I have NO IDEA. Can we count him as an option?? Doesn't seem like it. IMO, he's the best blend of scoring and vertical defending we've got,
Malik Allen? No thanks...might come close offensively if he's hitting his jump shot A LOT, but not really a better defender.
Victor Khryapa? No thanks...can't call him a better defender, and CERTAINLY won't provide the scoring that Noce does.
Thabo Sefolosha? Could go 'small'--even though he's just as tall as Noce--and go with a three guard starting 5, but now you've given up approx. 8-10 points a game without getting appreciably better defensively. Don't think so.
Sorry I typed a NOVEL there...just don't get to talk about my Bulls much. What are your guys' thoughts about Nocioni? You guys think he's a keeper as a starter? I think he'd make a terrific off-the-bench player, a guy who gives you energy, scoring, good effort on D, everything you'd want from a bench player.
Thoughts?
by Starred4Life on Jan 7, 2007 5:47 PM CST 0 recs
welcome
It all depends on the timetable. I think Tyrus could be the replacement in a few years, but if they're making a title run now I don't think they can get away with a Thomas/Wallace frontcourt.
And don't forget about rebounding. PJ and Ty are the best of that group, and a big reason (among many) that 'going small' with Thabo wouldn't work.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jan 7, 2007 5:52 PM CST
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Noc's Defense
Secondly, it doens't matter what the NBA is doing, if we have a system that works, good for us. Noch as a starter, in connection with BG off the bench, works for our team. The system with NOC starting and BG off the bench is 17-5....with Brown starting we are 3-9 (i realize there are numerous variables there, of which we have all anyalzed numerous times, but the w and l...to quote 'sheed [god i hate that nickname] "don't lie"
And why will we get rid of PJ....he's about as valuable trading chip in term of expriing contract as there is in the NBA...8 million off the books for the lucky team willing to trade us their franchise playwerrer
by milesgmsu on
Jan 7, 2007 8:14 PM CST
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Nocioni rebounding
2006-07
8.7 REB per 40
Previous 2 seasons
8.6 REB per 40
6.1 REB Per Game Career High this season and last
Nocioni isn't the ideal power forward. Despite his superhuman, Eckstein-esque hustle, Noc doesn't drag down enough boards for consideration as the primary power forward in the long term. He's a very weak shot-blocker as well.
by Paxson Jackson on
Jan 7, 2007 9:12 PM CST
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he's a great rebounder
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jan 7, 2007 11:54 PM CST
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noch's rebounding
Look at the team rebounding stats all around; we're one of ther best teams in the league at boards
by milesgmsu on
Jan 10, 2007 8:56 AM CST
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agree a little
I was mightily impressed with the effort expended on defense. For the most part, we collapsed on penetration very well, challenging shots effectively (Deng is becoming great in this regard), as mentioned before our help defense was making an impact, we were very scrappy in our man-to-man and our guards were rebounding well.
Playing small has it's problems but we seem to manage it well. All of our guards seem to be rebounding well. I imagine stats might not reflect that, but it's clear when watching a game. Obviously, Big Ben does fine hauling in boards. Deng's also become very strong around the boards.
Considering that I am no fan of Brown's play, I'm all for having Noce in at the 4, for now. I agree that Thomas has to eventually step in and assume that role. Of course, Tyrus focus his pre-game warm-up on chucking threes doesn't encourage thoughts of him as a true Power Foward.
Personally, I think Brown is one of the worst players in our rotation and I think the current state of the NBA benefits having your best players on the floor regardless of size. This team is starting to gel and it's apparent in how they work as a unit. I came away from that game very impressed. If it wasn't for many questionable calls by the refs, this is a 40-point blow out.
by CookDing on
Jan 8, 2007 9:40 AM CST
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Deng was defending
by Paxson Jackson on
Jan 8, 2007 9:52 AM CST
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actually agree with Paxjac
Noc brings good shooting and effort but he would be better off backing up the 3 and 4 spot long term. Unfortunately I don't think Tyrus has shown anything yet that suggests he can provide better play at 4 spot. I'm hoping Brown / Sweets can provide some size in playoffs if needed
by NY Chicago Fan on
Jan 8, 2007 12:58 PM CST
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Draft
You guys see anyone in college ball (alright, outside of Oden...sadly, I think we can let that dream go thanks to the Knicks sudden mini-resurgance) that you'd like to see the Bulls get?
I'm sure it's obvious, but I'd love to see the Bulls get an interior players, a player with post game...enough post game to get the "easy buckets" when our jump shots aren't falling.
The guy I see to fill that bill would be Spencer Hawes from Washington. At 6'11" 235lbs, he's got the size, even though he's gonna have to add between 15-20lbs to consistently play starter's minutes in the NBA.
Kid's an Amazing passer for a big man...and with our offense (seems like we do more cutting than Princeton), a big man who's a skilled passer could be quite valuable. Seems like it would translate into a lot of easy baskets for Deng, Thomas and Wallace.
You guys got your eyes on anyone else?
by Starred4Life on Jan 7, 2007 6:00 PM CST 0 recs
Unless it's
by Paxson Jackson on
Jan 7, 2007 6:28 PM CST
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coach K
by milesgmsu on
Jan 7, 2007 8:17 PM CST
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You're right, I did forget rebounding
Yet another reason for the "furrowed brow look" when considering why we'd let P.J. walk.
IMO, if we're gonna have ANY chance of defeating the Pistons in a seven-game series, we HAVE TO HAVE P.J. Brown.
by Starred4Life on Jan 7, 2007 6:06 PM CST 0 recs
P.J.'s only getting moved...
And I'm confused about something else. Although it's obvious to most everyone here that Nocioni is not the long term answer at the 4, last night's game when he outplayed 'Sheed by a wide margin certainly wasn't an illustration of that point.
by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on
Jan 8, 2007 12:27 AM CST
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But I will say this...
by Starred4Life on Jan 7, 2007 6:08 PM CST 0 recs
San Antonio...
by tyger1147 on Jan 8, 2007 2:52 PM CST 0 recs









